Something that's been bothering me: Harderstyles mastering.

[repeat]

Legacy, if you try and look away from the complex sound design used in Hardstyle I think you'll see that Hardstyle generally follows a pretty basic formula, rhythm and arrangement compared to Techno which is a complex culmination of atmosphere, layering and rhythms.. Granted there's loads of shit going on a lot of the time in Hardstyle, but maybe, just maybe, if some of that clutter was to be stripped back to give room to the components that did matter, we'd get a tighter mix ? As you will know (at least I hope you know) mastering can't fix a bad mix down and having some restraint during the mix down stage is a key component to a quality mix.

[Nitrax]

If you try and look away from the complex sound design used in Hardstyle I think you'll see that Hardstyle generally follows a pretty basic formula, rhythm and arrangement compared to Techno which is a complex culmination atmosphere, layering and rhythms.. Grated there's loads of shit going on a lot of the time in Hardstyle, but maybe, just maybe, if some of that clutter was to be stripped back to give room to the components that did matter, we'd get a tighter mix ?

What I was thinking, yeah. It's a bit more intelligent.

As you will know (at least I hope you know) mastering can't fix a bad mix down and having some restraint during the mix down stage is a key component to a quality mix.

That's also one thing I'm kind of confused about. Audiofreq sometimes posts pictures with lots of percussion and stuff, but I barely ever hear that in his tracks. Where does it really go wrong?

Either he makes it so subtle you don't even notice it and it just washes away in the mix, or the mastering engineer doesn't care and just pushes it way too hard.

[repeat]

That's also one thing I'm kind of confused about. Audiofreq sometimes posts pictures with lots of percussion and stuff, but I barely ever hear that in his tracks. Where does it really go wrong?

I suppose he just doesn't want them to feature as prominently in his tracks as other elements. Sometimes just adding some subtle percussion can add a wee bit of rhythm and drive to a track without the listener being too aware it's happening, which I think is an important part in dance music as it's music based on repetitiveness and there needs to be a signal that a change is coming or what not. Seriously have a listen to some music and try listen to the the inclusion of a hi-hat on the off beat or a little snare fill every now and again. Without them dance music would be pretty boring and the changes would feel really abrupt.

[Euphorizer]

This thread is hilarious. Lots of amateurs trying to analyze hardstyle and not really having any clue what they're talking about.

What Echidna says made sense. And to an extent, you have a point as well Nitrax. Mastering in today's hardstyle (and pretty much every other EDM genre out there, which you seem to fail to realise) is very poor coming from a home listeners perspective. On the other hand, you're making very outrageous statements. I'll go through some of them for you..

Why does it need to be so fucking loud that I can't make out details anymore?

This is probably an issue of perspective. I know for a fact this is an incorrect statement because I listen to hardstyle daily and have no trouble defining the details of the track. Seeing as you come from a techno, a much more minimalistic genre, I can see why something like hardstyle bothers you. I say either accept it or move on. Or make your own hardstyle that fits to your own liking. This is how the genre is.

The point where this question hit me the hardest was when I started listening to techno, and compared the waveforms of techno tracks to the waveforms of hardstyle and hardcore tracks. Insane difference.

I don't know about techno tracks and their waveforms, but I can point you to hardstyle tracks with reasonable waveforms post master.

Example:

Now of course techno doesn't have as much crazy sounds in it, but the way it's mastered is perfect. Clean, loud, and with a shit ton of bass. Why can't hardstyle have that?

That's a very dangerous thing you do there, using the word 'perfect'. What is perfect for you isn't perfect for everybody else. Also you're sort of contradicting yourself when you complain about hardstyle waveforms being too fat, and yet you include 'loud' as something a perfect master should be.

KRK RP6G2s, but that's not really the point, the same thing happens through my AKG studio headphones. The point is that my most recent production, and I'm still quite amateur-ish, shows more clarity and detail than nearly every hardstyle/core track I have in my collection. Those pro tracks are louder, but at the same time noisier. I don't want the noise, that's all.

I took a moment to listen to some of your techno tracks. They sound quite nice, so kudos to you! But once again, there is a world of difference between your techno tracks and modern hardstyle. In your mix, you could make a single hihat one of the main items in it. Hardstyle usually doesn't work like that, it appears I also definitely disagree with your statement claiming they have more clarity and detail than "nearly every hardstyle/core track" you have in your collection. But then again, maybe you only have shitty producer's tracks in your collection.

I do have to say not everything's all bad though, but a big part of what's being released at the moment. Well, not bad, but totally not my idea of what they should do. And that's what I don't get: It is possible to get a mix clean like that but still maintain that reverb and a sharp kick, but it happens so rarely that I hear tracks in that quality.

I think you managed to hit the nail on its head here. You say they're not "my idea of what they should do". So once again we come back to the "this is how hardstyle is, either accept or move on" point. But as we move on reading this, you still use defining descriptions such as "quality". What is it that defines quality? What is quality for you is evidently not quality for all these pro hs/hc artists.

So what can we make out of this? You're comparing apples with oranges. What is your idea of quality isn't everybody else's idea of quality. Sure, that might suck for you, but since you so conveniently happen to be a producer who isn't complete shit at what he is doing I urge you to make the hardstyle you want to hear. Please do it. I genuinely think this genre could use a more fresh take on its very basic concepts, and it seems like someone like you could be helping us see that happen.

[repeat]

This thread is hilarious. Lots of amateurs trying to analyze hardstyle and not really having any clue what they're talking about.

Seeing as we're all amateurs and you are the one with your name embezzled in the coveted gold, I would have expected you to address some of the points that Nitrax has raised instead of bashing him for his his use of vocabulary, and I think he does have a point in a lot of the finished tracks do sound fairly noisy but this less to do with mastering than with completing a proper mix down. Also you say something about mastering being poor for home listeners... is the whole point of mastering NOT to bring it up to an acceptable, agreed standard for listening. If this is not the case for hardstyle then there is a problem with how hardstyle is mastered.
You seem more raging that he's having a go at Hardstyle than any of the valid points he made. So please i invite you to correct our outlandish perspectives and views, but please do so in a way which is actually relevant to the topic..

[Dj Reaper]

Guys, this thread again seems to escalate into arguing about musical taste. A person likes hardstyle because it doesn't have too much small things going on, it's a (usually) a big ft lead on a big fat kick playing a dominant melody. Some people (including me) like it others do not, and may be more impressed by less melody-based music and more progressive and minimal arrangement and sounds (automations, combinibg many smaller sounds etx what you listed). But that has nothing to do with the mastering, these are choices a producer makes when producing and arranging. And also if a producer doesn't want a snare to kick in brutally but just add some punch and noise and high freqs to announce a transition than this is his choice.
And also about detail, listen too Frontliner - Weekend Warriors for example. I once tried to analyze how many tracks and things are going on and that was just insane. I could hear so many hidden elements, and they weren't barely audible, they just needed some focus when listening and you can clearly hear that they give something special to the track without steeling attention on the main sounds.
In the end it is just about taste and that's why we have many generes, and I find it good if you have an idea for hardstyle that differs from the standard idea because that means you are creative and have your own sound you want to realize. keep that up.

But in the end this all has nothing to do with mastering, yes hardatyle has loud masters and even some crappy ones (like in some headhunterz tracks where the lead clips or also zatox my life imo) but in first place the mixdown plays a big role and in the end all generes have their specific sound, some are loud and powrfull and noisy, others are more deep and smooth but that often depends at what audience the tracks are aimed and where they are mainly played.

[repeat]

A man (or woman) with some sense.

[Euphorizer]

This thread is hilarious. Lots of amateurs trying to analyze hardstyle and not really having any clue what they're talking about.

Seeing as we're all amateurs and you are the one with your name embezzled in the coveted gold, I would have expected you to address some of the points that Nitrax has raised instead of bashing him for his his use of vocabulary, and I think he does have a point in a lot of the finished tracks do sound fairly noisy but this less to do with mastering than with completing a proper mix down. Also you say something about mastering being poor for home listeners... is the whole point of mastering NOT to bring it up to an acceptable, agreed standard for listening. If this is not the case for hardstyle then there is a problem with how hardstyle is mastered.
You seem more raging that he's having a go at Hardstyle than any of the valid points he made. So please i invite you to correct our outlandish perspectives and views, but please do so in a way which is actually relevant to the topic..

It's almost like you didn't bother reading through my post. And no, people producer tracks with the sole purpose of them working in livesets, of course we are going to see masters that are supposed to sound good live, rather than at home. You seem to be very offended, and if that is the case, I apologize. But I still think that this thread is rather ridiculous. Oh well, a discussion is a discussion and everyone has their rights to their opinions, so I'm sorry for acting like I'm up on a high horse.

[repeat]

This thread is hilarious. Lots of amateurs trying to analyze hardstyle and not really having any clue what they're talking about.

Seeing as we're all amateurs and you are the one with your name embezzled in the coveted gold, I would have expected you to address some of the points that Nitrax has raised instead of bashing him for his his use of vocabulary, and I think he does have a point in a lot of the finished tracks do sound fairly noisy but this less to do with mastering than with completing a proper mix down. Also you say something about mastering being poor for home listeners... is the whole point of mastering NOT to bring it up to an acceptable, agreed standard for listening. If this is not the case for hardstyle then there is a problem with how hardstyle is mastered.
You seem more raging that he's having a go at Hardstyle than any of the valid points he made. So please i invite you to correct our outlandish perspectives and views, but please do so in a way which is actually relevant to the topic..

It's almost like you didn't bother reading through my post. And no, people producer tracks with the sole purpose of them working in livesets, of course we are going to see masters that are supposed to sound good live, rather than at home. You seem to be very offended, and if that is the case, I apologize. But I still think that this thread is rather ridiculous. Oh well, a discussion is a discussion and everyone has their rights to their opinions, so I'm sorry for acting like I'm up on a high horse.

Your way of addressing any of his issues was that it was all to do with his perspective and nothing else when i assume that seeing as you are a producer you understand the basics in psychoacoustics,frequency content, masking etc and could have gave a less snidey pig headed answer (the opening statement didn't help) and give a more informative, educated answer like the majority of people on this thread .

You make a valid point about mastering for the purpose of playing out in a live scenario, but that shouldn't be lost in translation when listening in a home environment. The fact other genres can do should mean that Hardstyle should be brought up to the same standard, do you not think ? Also is it not common practice that once you mix down a track to play it on multiple different reference monitors (going as shitty as you can such as a car stereo) to find make sure that the music sounds good in every environment ?

[Dj Reaper]

btw sry for a little offtopic guys but have you noticed that in 95% of the threads where the topic title contains the word mastering some heavy arguing takes place. Seems like some words are like poison on harderstate.