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Abortion : Current situation - Opinions - Debate

  

Postby Double-T » 05 Jun 2011, 21:57

Hey guys,

A prior discussion with my mate ceero made me realize that this forum was missing some " deep " debates. So, this is kind of a test-topic which will lead to more of these kind of topics if everything goes well !

I would like to discuss about abortions and know your opinions about it.
Do you think it should be allowed or forbidden etc ?

Here is my opinion on it, feel free to comment :
Abortion should be authorized in some special cases including pregnancies folowing a sexual crime and ONLY in special cases. It shouldn't be allowed when it comes to 17-year-old girls who couldn't resist to the high school hottie. In France you have reached the sexual majority by the age of 15, meaning that when you are 15 years old or above, you are responsible for your acts, including the use or not of contraceptive methods.

P.S. This is a serious topic. Any non-constructive comment will be reprimanded.
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Postby RapingPaper » 05 Jun 2011, 22:25

In my honest opinion, everybody should be allowed to abord. Because, yes, some silly teenagers just can't resist and get pregnant, but imo it mostly effects their whole lifes, mostely not in a good way. And even if you protect, sometimes something goes wrong.
I guess you're saying that not everybody should be allowed to do it, because youre not a girl (I'm serious on that.) You wouldn't have to go through all this crap, pregnancy, etc, so I guess it's easier to say youre against it.

When a girl gets pregnant at 16 and says she wants to abord, I would be 100% behind her back. Here in Austria education is a very very very important thing, and you can't do that when you get pregnant in that age.

And, why shouldn't a person decide for themselve if they want to do it or not? Why forbid it? I see no point behind that.
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Postby Tisch » 05 Jun 2011, 22:33

Thats a fair point but what about the 3% of the time where the condom does fail and there is not a single contraceptive method that is 100% reliable.

I generably believe that abortion should be legal but different situations deserve different answers.

Therefore this question also leads to many other questions ,namely, if a girl gets drunk and knocked up, assuming the guy is sober, whos fault is it? and should abortion be legal in those cases?

P.S. I completly agree that everyone has the right to do what they want up to a certain point and denying people access to something would be a breach of basic human rights.
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Postby Prozel » 05 Jun 2011, 23:00

I see your point, T, but imo that's way too black/white. There's alot factors that can cause a girl to get pregant early, RapingPaper and Jump21 already pointed that out.

You could ask yourself: If you got a little to drunk at a party and to months later you find out that ypu have to be a parent, wouldn't you mind a second chance? Instead of giving up education etc.
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Postby ceero » 05 Jun 2011, 23:05

As my probably deepest philosophical attitude is that absolutely noone has right to talk to your own actions and decisions that does not effect themselves directly (in the negative freedom meaning), i am generally more pro-abortion than anti-abortion, but i generally don't care about it that much.

I'm not for unlimited options of abortion though. There is a thing i definitely stand for though. Abortion is only mother's decision, what is wrong. Legally abortions should be allowed after agreement of BOTH parents. Also there maybe could be some limit of abortions (without a serious reason like being a victim of rape) per person, even though i don't know how frequent abortions are or whether there are women who absolved several abortions, but some rule like once and enough isnt a bad idea imo.

What i especially dislike is the anti-abortionistic demagogic propaganda, e.g. slogans like "killing innocent babies" or "children killers" together with those religious anti-abortionistic movements and organisations (this is how far can it reach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill)
It's definitely wrong and harmfull to drag religion in this topic in general and cases like this are the reason why i'm extremely antireligious person. Why should something what you believe in affect someone's else life ?

But the thing i'm the most seriously concerned about. In Slovakian legislative for example, any manipulation with a fetus, even if its a few days old fetus which is just a bunch of few hundred cells is considered as crime and you can get sentenced to jail for it. I absolutely don't understand how the hell comes that the stem cells research is being slowed down and banned because people who dont agree with abortions and consider it "amoral". Nothing should obstruct or slow down scientific research, especially not a few people's moral opinions. Although i don't get how someone can consider a few hundred cells a human being, fine, let's consider it a human. Why should it be banned if it can help science ? How much would we know about anathomy and human body without autopsy of human bodies ?
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Postby DjVero » 05 Jun 2011, 23:35

Jump21:Therefore this question also leads to many other questions ,namely, if a girl gets drunk and knocked up, assuming the guy is sober, whos fault is it? and should abortion be legal in those cases?



Yes, abortion should be legal in any case, up to a certain period. A girl or woman should always be able to decide over her own body or condition, especially those who have been raped or have made a terrible mistake, but again up to a certain period such as within the first 7-9 weeks.
Imo an embryo isn't a full living being yet, therefore people should be able to make the decision to take it away. When an embryo turns into a foetus after like 7 or 8 weeks I read, it's more a living being already and then an abortion should not be legal in every case, such as when a girl/woman has been raped.
Last edited by DjVero on 05 Jun 2011, 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Double-T » 05 Jun 2011, 23:50

Answers to previous posts :

Because, yes, some silly teenagers just can't resist and get pregnant, but imo it mostly effects their whole lifes, mostely not in a good way. And even if you protect, sometimes something goes wrong.
I guess you're saying that not everybody should be allowed to do it, because youre not a girl (I'm serious on that.) You wouldn't have to go through all this crap, pregnancy, etc, so I guess it's easier to say youre against it.


I'm not saying she necesserily has to keep the child, she can leave it to adoption after she gave birth to it f.e.

And, why shouldn't a person decide for themselve if they want to do it or not? Why forbid it? I see no point behind that.


Because IMO, as young as it might be, a fetus is still considered as a human life, who are you to decide wether or not it should live ? (No speaking about religion here at all or w/e)

Thats a fair point but what about the 3% of the time where the condom does fail and there is not a single contraceptive method that is 100% reliable.


Condom is not the only contraceptive method on Earth

Therefore this question also leads to many other questions ,namely, if a girl gets drunk and knocked up, assuming the guy is sober, whos fault is it? and should abortion be legal in those cases?


I would count that into my " some cases "...

Although i don't get how someone can consider a few hundred cells a human being, fine, let's consider it a human.


As far as I know, a few hundred cells are not considered human. The life itself is considered human starting from a foetus (even if that's debated a lot and will probably never come to an answer), which is after the 6th or 8th week of pregnancy if I'm remembering my science classes well...

Imo an embryo isn't a full living being yet, therefore people should be able to make the decision to take it away. When an embryo turns into a foetus after like 7 or 8 weeks I read, it's more a living being already and then an abortion should not be legal in any case, such as when a girl/woman has been raped.


Nothing more to add.

Other stuff :

There also is an aspect of this we just can't ignore. Abort after a certain period of pregnancy gets really dangerous on a physical aspect for the mother. After the 5th week of pregnancy, Mifepristone (RU-486 / An abortion pill) can not be taken anymore and thus, abortion requires an invasive surgery.
Plus a lot of teenagers are neglecting the psychological effects of an abortion imo.
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Postby ceero » 05 Jun 2011, 23:53

Double-T:
Although i don't get how someone can consider a few hundred cells a human being, fine, let's consider it a human.


As far as I know, a few hundred cells are not considered human. The life itself is considered human starting from a foetus (even if that's debated a lot and will probably never come to an answer), which is after the 6th or 8th week of pregnancy if I'm remembering my science classes well...

Legally maybe not (even though that depends on thee concrete legislative, in Poland for example the law is very strict about this as far as i know) but there is a strong anti-abortion lobby which claims the otherwise and that's what i meant ;)
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Postby RapingPaper » 06 Jun 2011, 00:05

Double-T:
And, why shouldn't a person decide for themselve if they want to do it or not? Why forbid it? I see no point behind that.


Because IMO, as young as it might be, a fetus is still considered as a human life, who are you to decide wether or not it should live ? (No speaking about religion here at all or w/e)

i didnt say i want to decide, but i think the mother should decide.. why should the government or w/e decide that she cant?

plus, afaik, abortion only works in the first 6 weeks? and considering that in the first 6 weeks it isnt a human beeing, i also dont see as "killing"..

my past, not that important:
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when i was 15 i had a boyfriend, and we protected with condoms, since my doctor said i would be to young for birth control.. so once i didnt get my period, it was 14days after i should have gotten it, and i got really nervous. i took some pregnancy tests and they were negative, but i swear.. if i would have been pregnant, i would have aborted, without even thinking about it. because it wouldve ruined my life ^10 ..and if i wouldve noticed only 8 weeks after (even tho you have to be pretty silly for that), and i couldnt have aborted anymore, i would have through myself down some stairs or something..

what i want to say with this, sometimes such stuff happens, and sometimes its not your fault at all. i mean yes, the thing that always works best is just not having sex, but everybody who already had a longer relationship knows that it happens at some point..

so, thibs, you would have forced me to take the child if i was pregnant? thats just a thing i think is unfair.. everybody should decide for themselves imo
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Postby SCH » 06 Jun 2011, 00:13

Pro. To tired to give any long arguments for, but one shouldn't raise a kid that it doesn not want to raise, since it will affect the kid.
I'm grumpier than you.

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Postby Double-T » 06 Jun 2011, 00:14

Ok maybe I said my opinion in the wrong way.
I think that the word abortion can only be used after the 6th week of pregnancy, because technically before, it's not a baby. I had a friend who did it without protection and who was afraid of being pregnant, of course I didn't molest her to kill her if she would adopt lol, I even went to the pharmacy and pretended I was the boyfriend and that I wanted an ECP...

What I am against is abortion post-6th-week. Maybe it's a little brighter now :)

the thing that always works best is just not having sex


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Postby VOL-E » 06 Jun 2011, 00:15

It's really hard to tell about this... but my opinion is that abortion should be canceled everywhere!
"wtf, man earth has lots of human beings already!"
"16 year old girl alone won't make it"
"what about education?"
"etc, etc ,etc"
YOU HAVE A LITTLE CHILD IN YOU, go to the hospital, take a picture of him in some weeks, and then say "naa still want to do it" you wont say like that.

I have a son, my girlfriend isn't in university, but what the hell? we are happy. Each morning I'm happy, that somebody makes me proud. His first steps in growing. Think about it... You will always have time for education, we all love sex, but as I know it's pretty damn hard to make a baby, lots of couples can't make it... they go to the hospital, and the doctor says "Ahh, everything is fine, just cum in her"... Later that night she is fulled with cum, but still... result is 0. ( My far relatives have that problem, everything is fine, but they can't make it )

Btw, according to Europe, we have lots of old ppl... because everybody thinks about "education, money, superstar"

"Will be hot like Beyonce"
"I will be famous like Justin"

Here is something about it...


European life:
school = 18 years old
university ~ 25 years old
good work place ~ 30-40
kids -

Lets fuck & birth...
I felt it... I heard it...
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Postby lamtak » 06 Jun 2011, 13:06

Definately pro. I'll give one example. A few months ago, a 12 yo girl gave birth to a daughter during a school trip. She was sexually abused by her father. To make matters worse, it got in the news and now the whole country knows the story and she has been put in the witness protect program. Need more arguments? Why do ppl wanna decide about others? Just mind your own fucking business please.
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Postby Tiifa » 06 Jun 2011, 13:17

It should be allowed. Of course, it depends on the situation, but no one has the right to decide for someone elses life. And like RapingPaper said, it's "easy" for guys to be against it, because they will never go thru, or experience it.

If I would become pregnant, and abortion would not be legal, I would probably also throw myself down stairs or smth (sorry, taking your wrods rapingpaper xd). Imagine a teenager who is absolutely not ready to have kid (for personal reasons, economical, educational etc), being forced to give birth to it and raise it, how good life would that kid have then? Yes, adoption is possible, but having to give birth isn't exactly the most pleasant thing on Earth. And how easy would it actually be to give away the baby you just gave birth to? That is individual of course, but speaking generally here.

Then again, if someone is careless, and simply doesn't use condoms, or whatever, and keeps getting pregnant (thus abort over and over again) it's a whole different situation. No one should think "I don't need to protect myself, I can just abort if shit happens".

Just my 2 cents..
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Postby zanshi » 08 Jun 2011, 18:41

ceero:What i especially dislike is the anti-abortionistic demagogic propaganda, e.g. slogans like "killing innocent babies" or "children killers" together with those religious anti-abortionistic movements and organisations (this is how far can it reach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill)
It's definitely wrong and harmfull to drag religion in this topic in general and cases like this are the reason why i'm extremely antireligious person. Why should something what you believe in affect someone's else life ?

But the thing i'm the most seriously concerned about. In Slovakian legislative for example, any manipulation with a fetus, even if its a few days old fetus which is just a bunch of few hundred cells is considered as crime and you can get sentenced to jail for it. I absolutely don't understand how the hell comes that the stem cells research is being slowed down and banned because people who dont agree with abortions and consider it "amoral". Nothing should obstruct or slow down scientific research, especially not a few people's moral opinions. Although i don't get how someone can consider a few hundred cells a human being, fine, let's consider it a human. Why should it be banned if it can help science ? How much would we know about anathomy and human body without autopsy of human bodies ?


dude i'm SO feeling you here.
i seriously just get disgusted by people telling ME that i might KILL something, that i should be housewife and mother indstead of having a well-planned family. wtf is their point? should i quit my studies to be "happy"? who the heck proofs me that i'll be happy? and what gives them the right to tell ME what the heck to do with MY body? i tried VERY hard to understand people like that but i simply can't. the religion thing (altogether with the entire fucked up view basically every religion has on the human reproduction and everything around it) is completely different and very extended topic in my opinion but it also has a LOT to do with it.

i also can't understand if a couple is dedicating a few of ovaries and spermcells to science that people INSTANTLY point their fingers at the "evil evil scientists and soulless donators". without stemcell therapy for instance certain survival-granting or transpanting treatments would NEVER be possible and who knows what kind of breakthroughs would be possible with the research done on embryos etc. and yes, that had been forbidden aswell. ofc it's a difference if you experiemnt with BABIES or with embryos - but hey - people make a bigger fuzz about science & embryos than about the people who get die at this very moment cause certain therapies are missing.

VOL-E:Lets fuck & birth...


dude i do not get ANY for your goddamn fucking points here.

let's imagine a worst case scenario:
how the heck am i for instance able to raise a kid if i'd get pregnant? how am i going to afford diapers and food when i'm still in school? OH YEA MY BOYFRIEND CAN GO TO WORK. yes, nice - he's still in school aswell. so we're both fulltime students, one of us being pregnant, having barely money. so we both have to quit school for the sake of going to work. nobody wants school-quitters with a baby. it looks irresponsible, nobody wants an irresponsible project manager or art director. oh and let's say i get kicked out of home cause having a baby does not compute with my dad's view on my life. so i am homeless now. but each morning i'll smile and be happy cause i have born a child, which has proably down-syndrome cause of my heavy smoking. well done.

and about the human race not reproducing:
i do not care, we multiplied and desptroyed this planet like a virus.

but that's kind of drifting off the topic a bit i guess.
there are a LOT of reasons why i'm for the free choice of aborting or not.

SCH:...but one shouldn't raise a kid that it doesn not want to raise, since it will affect the kid.


this being the main one.
nobody should be forced or convinced to raise a kid.
if it's not a 100% clear thing you may seriously harm your life and especially the life of your child.
and not just harm - but destroy.
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