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Abortion : Current situation - Opinions - Debate

  

Postby Dekkaz » 09 Jun 2011, 09:33

In France you have reached the sexual majority by the age of 15, meaning that when you are 15 years old or above, you are responsible for your acts, including the use or not of contraceptive methods.

some 15 - 18 year olds are still kids even though you may not want to believe that.

I swear almost all anti abortionists are male.
I have a son, my girlfriend isn't in university, but what the hell? we are happy.

What if it was a single parent?
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Postby VOL-E » 09 Jun 2011, 16:39

zanshi
your parents wont help you? the country doesn't pay for the newborn kids? ( for the birth & each month ) ?? Maybe in Central Europe it's different, but in Estonia we have very low pays according to our neighbour Finland where the pays are x5 much more then we have. And still it is possible, to grow a kid without any problems, but ofc it's a bit hard, because your life changes a lot. Maybe that's the point that some of young ppl don't want to change, because they still want to party hard.

Goverment pays: 19euros a month for kid
My girlfriend recieves: 500euros from her job each month+my salary
we have like 1500 a month for three of us, I think some of you recieves this amount only for yourself... So I think in Central Europe it isn't a big deal to grow a kid :p depends on your big step in to "parents job" ready or not. ;)

Smoking at 20 years won't make any diffects... you will have down-syndrome kid when you are above 35. 30 years is the last jump to give a birth for good healty kid.

Dekkaz
The same point: parents? country? ( parent can help, country will pay for your kid )





And besides I'm not against abortion at all, I just don't get it... If you cant protect yourself why do you make sex then? Who made abortion possible, made like "Save Game" for the girls. Ofc to be pregnant in +14 years old it's very bad, because you are still a kid yourself, but from age of 18 you are already grown up, your head thinks it over about your life.

Maybe it's just my "pointless" view of this... but this is the way I see it.
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Postby arder-arderstyle » 10 Jun 2011, 14:38

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Postby Raw Output » 15 Jun 2011, 20:51

RapingPaper:In my honest opinion, everybody should be allowed to abord. Because, yes, some silly teenagers just can't resist and get pregnant, but imo it mostly effects their whole lifes, mostely not in a good way. And even if you protect, sometimes something goes wrong.
I guess you're saying that not everybody should be allowed to do it, because youre not a girl (I'm serious on that.) You wouldn't have to go through all this crap, pregnancy, etc, so I guess it's easier to say youre against it.

When a girl gets pregnant at 16 and says she wants to abord, I would be 100% behind her back. Here in Austria education is a very very very important thing, and you can't do that when you get pregnant in that age.

And, why shouldn't a person decide for themselve if they want to do it or not? Why forbid it? I see no point behind that.



I agree with this post, just because you fuck up once doesnt mean you have to live with it your whole life. Also its none of others business if someone wants to abort their mistake, so fuck all of those anti-abortionists.
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Postby Lop-Sided » 18 Aug 2011, 02:33

Judging by what most of the other guys have been saying about this, people are going to want to tie me up, and throw me into a fire to burn because of what I have to say about this....So....go ahead and buy that rope. While you do that, I'll be waiting by the fireplace. :+

And Forewarning: This is going to be a looooong post!

One of the things that I generally believe is that abortion is just wrong. I don't see why people should have the choice to abort a baby at all (except maybe for rape, which I still don't really like the idea of either...but whatever...go ahead).

One of the things that I am basing this off of is that life begins at conception.

I know that many of you guys are like how the hell could only a couple hundred cells be a life? Well, biologically-speaking, the definition of an organism (living thing) is that they are creatures that can reproduce, breathe, eat, etc. Not all these organisms have as many cells as human beings, but still are considered to be living creatures. Rabbits, for example, have less cells than humans, but they are still living creatures. And the same goes for ants, who have less cells than rabbits, but are still considered living beings. Even though amoebas are unicellular creatures (they only have one cell), they are also considered to be living things, because they can reproduce, eat, and breathe, etc. etc. etc. Isn't this the same thing with humans, when they are only composed of one cell? The first cell of a human being appears during conception, when sperm and egg meet to form a cell. This cell can only grow and make more cells if it has things such as food, air, shelter, etc. This makes it that this one cell is in fact a living being too, whether you believe it or not. Yes, you could take a single-celled amoeba and kill it, and there would be not any problem with it. However, if you take that single-celled human, and kill it, there is most definetly a problem. Organisms of the same species don't kill each other unless there is a crisis or there is lack of food or necessities...After all, flies don't kill each other for no reason, and lions certainly don't kill each other for the fun of it either. The only time that these animals would murder each other is if there is no food or there is a lack of necessities. This is opposed to humans, who abort because of mainly social problems, and not problems related to survival. To sum it all up, life begins at conception, because that one human cell can still breathe, eat, and move, even though it has to do it inside of a mother (sort of like how bacteria lives in everybody's intestines.)

Now that this is established, the reason that abortion is wrong, is because it really does kill a living being, whether it may be composed of one cell, hundreds of cells, or even a trillion cells. There is even some evidence received from scientific research that states that the baby may feel pain while undergoing the abortion.

I would also say that you shouldn't have sex right now either, until you are married simply because if you aren't ready to have a baby, then how could you be ready to have sex, since a baby could happen anytime? You would have to already have a decent job to support your family, and you would have to be done with school. Most people aren't exactly ready when they have sex before marriage.
Also, in a sense, you already have the freedom of a choice to have a baby or not...That choice is present before having sex. If you have sex, then you agree to all the consequences of it, but if you don't then you agree to all the consequences of not having it.
I'm not saying not to have a girlfriend, or a boyfriend, but if f*cking each other is the central thing or is at the top of your relationship, then you need to rethink some things.

Enough for now...I could probably still go on, but I think that I've pissed off a number of people by now. So I'll stop. :)
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Postby SCH » 18 Aug 2011, 13:02

Humans are creatures with a sexuality, why deny them that?
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Postby ceero » 18 Aug 2011, 14:23

The difference between you and me is that i really don't ask myself whether and from what point embryo can be considered a human being or not. After all, i don't see the point in deciding if a bunch of cells is a potential human or not because in my opinion, it absolutely doesn't matter, because it's a freaking bunch of cells (talking about the very first weeks of pregnancy). Yes, it's alive. So are female reproductive cells which are "killed" during menstruation, so is sperm which ends up somewhere on bedsheet, all of those could potentially grow to full living person one day, isn't that a murder too ? Yes, you could argue that they are not connected together, therefor it's not fully "it". But let's say, the embryo could potentionally grow if not aborted, so could sperm cells if potentionally connected with female ovum. Most of embryos die not because of people aborting them, but they are spontaneously "aborted" by nature in the first days of their existence, without letting you even notice they exist. Another example - fetilization in vitro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilisation). Several cells are fetilised outside of the female body several embryos are put inside the body afterwards. Several in sake of increasing the chance of growing one fully. One usually does, guess what happens to the others ? Isn't it better to sacrifice a few embryos in sake of having one fully grown baby ? Because from your perspective they are equall "because they all can reproduce, eat, and breathe, etc". Hope you are joking with that "no sex before marriage" thing. Try sex once and you will change your opinion ;)
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Postby Piro » 18 Aug 2011, 14:24

Lop-Sided:Judging by what most of the other guys have been saying about this, people are going to want to tie me up, and throw me into a fire to burn because of what I have to say about this....So....go ahead and buy that rope. While you do that, I'll be waiting by the fireplace. :+

And Forewarning: This is going to be a looooong post!

One of the things that I generally believe is that abortion is just wrong. I don't see why people should have the choice to abort a baby at all (except maybe for rape, which I still don't really like the idea of either...but whatever...go ahead).

One of the things that I am basing this off of is that life begins at conception.

I know that many of you guys are like how the hell could only a couple hundred cells be a life? Well, biologically-speaking, the definition of an organism (living thing) is that they are creatures that can reproduce, breathe, eat, etc. Not all these organisms have as many cells as human beings, but still are considered to be living creatures. Rabbits, for example, have less cells than humans, but they are still living creatures. And the same goes for ants, who have less cells than rabbits, but are still considered living beings. Even though amoebas are unicellular creatures (they only have one cell), they are also considered to be living things, because they can reproduce, eat, and breathe, etc. etc. etc. Isn't this the same thing with humans, when they are only composed of one cell? The first cell of a human being appears during conception, when sperm and egg meet to form a cell. This cell can only grow and make more cells if it has things such as food, air, shelter, etc. This makes it that this one cell is in fact a living being too, whether you believe it or not. Yes, you could take a single-celled amoeba and kill it, and there would be not any problem with it. However, if you take that single-celled human, and kill it, there is most definetly a problem. Organisms of the same species don't kill each other unless there is a crisis or there is lack of food or necessities...After all, flies don't kill each other for no reason, and lions certainly don't kill each other for the fun of it either. The only time that these animals would murder each other is if there is no food or there is a lack of necessities. This is opposed to humans, who abort because of mainly social problems, and not problems related to survival. To sum it all up, life begins at conception, because that one human cell can still breathe, eat, and move, even though it has to do it inside of a mother (sort of like how bacteria lives in everybody's intestines.)

Now that this is established, the reason that abortion is wrong, is because it really does kill a living being


Ah, so, abortion is wrong cause it kills a living being? following your pattern, also using a car is wrong, cause you kill millions of bugs and insect. And EVERYBODY knows it happens, but still, humans really not seem to care about this.
If you'd look at this situation under mother nature's point of view, you would see a bunch of "fifth apes" arguing about their right to interact with living creatures' life flow. The fact that we are human, does not mean we are more important than other living creatures. if you follow you pattern, you should preserve every form of life on earth, not only human kind because you are part of it. This abortion arguing is really disrespectfull to all kind of living creatures which we fuck up with our "we are humans" attitude in everydays life.
what I wanna point out, is that this whole abortion thing is going on because we care more about our kind than any other. If there was a certain animal capable to abort and choose when to reproduce, would you care about his situation as much as you care about this?
If you wanna talk about "life" and its value, keep it general. Our life has the same value of any other living creature life. we're not better, neither worse.
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Postby ceero » 18 Aug 2011, 14:30

Really great point Piro. Agree completely.
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Postby Raw Output » 18 Aug 2011, 14:33

I disagree, i'm better than a fly or something :+
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Postby RapingPaper » 18 Aug 2011, 16:22

notsureifsrs.jpg :O
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Postby zanshi » 18 Aug 2011, 18:24

Lop-Sided:Yes, you could take a single-celled amoeba and kill it, and there would be not any problem with it. However, if you take that single-celled human, and kill it, there is most definetly a problem. Organisms of the same species don't kill each other unless there is a crisis or there is lack of food or necessities...After all, flies don't kill each other for no reason, and lions certainly don't kill each other for the fun of it either. The only time that these animals would murder each other is if there is no food or there is a lack of necessities.


two comments here:
we do not need more humans on this planet, and yes we have a crisis. in maybe 50 years we're going to run out of fossil energies and in 150 out of drinking water. so, yea, basically it's totally okay.
second: isn't it also a crsis if you're in a bad finacial situation?
and tbh, i'd much rather have an abortion than losing a pet, may sounds super-rude but what the heck.
i would NEVER kill something i love, but i'd get rid of everything that may destroy me or my life forever, for me not being able to abort would maybe drive me into a suicidal state of mind again - BAM two lives lost, take that.
humans are killing each other since they're humans. for food, for territory, for reproduction, money, political reasons,...

Now that this is established, the reason that abortion is wrong, is because it really does kill a living being, whether it may be composed of one cell, hundreds of cells, or even a trillion cells. There is even some evidence received from scientific research that states that the baby may feel pain while undergoing the abortion.


no shit sherlock? and what with the fucking holocaust on your plate every day?
so killing a baby ONCE in your life is not okay, but killing shitloads of animals for the sake of leather shoes, jackets, food and other animal products is okay? animal testing is okay? in your definition those are living creatures aswell aren't they?
humans killed so many creatures, and reased entire species from this planet and that was okay.
hm.
okay - what the FUCK is going on in your head?
abortions are mostly full anesthesia procedures, neither mum nor child feel anything.
you can't say that about most animal farms.
sorry for the veggie outlashing here, i usually do not do that but YOU really made me fucking angry here.
no offense haha.

I would also say that you shouldn't have sex right now either, until you are married simply because if you aren't ready to have a baby, then how could you be ready to have sex, since a baby could happen anytime? You would have to already have a decent job to support your family, and you would have to be done with school. Most people aren't exactly ready when they have sex before marriage.

i'm okay with the consequences :3
that's why there's aways 500€ on my bank account, a morning after pill in my meds case and a nuvaring in my fridge.
babies do not "happen", stupid people and wrong use of hormones & condoms, that's what's happening.

not to be sounding completely heartless, but i think you really do not understand what this may mean for a lot of people.
also considering that we're not the only creatures living on this planet, we shouldn't be reproducing in a completly unecessary way, especially if we didn't want it to happen.
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Postby Lop-Sided » 18 Aug 2011, 19:11

SCH:Humans are creatures with a sexuality, why deny them that?


I'm not denying that to anybody...I just think that people should wait a little...make it more special when they get married...Most of you guys here probably see it as the stupidest thing you've ever heard...I don't blame you for it...But in my opinion, sex would be more special if people only had it with the person that they truly love (your future spouse) and not someone who you think you love. (i.e. girlfriend/boyfriend).

ceero:The difference between you and me is that i really don't ask myself whether and from what point embryo can be considered a human being or not. After all, i don't see the point in deciding if a bunch of cells is a potential human or not because in my opinion, it absolutely doesn't matter, because it's a freaking bunch of cells (talking about the very first weeks of pregnancy). Yes, it's alive. So are female reproductive cells which are "killed" during menstruation, so is sperm which ends up somewhere on bedsheet, all of those could potentially grow to full living person one day, isn't that a murder too ? Yes, you could argue that they are not connected together, therefor it's not fully "it". But let's say, the embryo could potentionally grow if not aborted, so could sperm cells if potentionally connected with female ovum. Most of embryos die not because of people aborting them, but they are spontaneously "aborted" by nature in the first days of their existence, without letting you even notice they exist. Another example - fetilization in vitro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilisation). Several cells are fetilised outside of the female body several embryos are put inside the body afterwards. Several in sake of increasing the chance of growing one fully. One usually does, guess what happens to the others ? Isn't it better to sacrifice a few embryos in sake of having one fully grown baby ? Because from your perspective they are equall "because they all can reproduce, eat, and breathe, etc". Hope you are joking with that "no sex before marriage" thing. Try sex once and you will change your opinion ;)


You bring up some good points, Ceero. :)

Imo, just because those freaking bunch of cells are only a few weeks old, doesn't make it mean that they are only a freaking bunch of cells. This is where my opinion of "life starts at conception" comes in...

I do agree with you that a sperm cell or an egg cell has life no matter whether they are united or not, but there is a difference between sperm or eggs that have not actually united and sperm and egg cells that have united together. You are right that as cells, sperm and egg are always alive. Sperm cells on the bedsheet aren't murdered, because they can't actually live on their own. While you could say that it is in fact alive, which it is, it's only a building block for creating a living organism. The same goes for eggs that are released during menstruation. These building blocks, sperm and egg, do not grow if they are by themselves, and therefore aren't considered to be living organisms...They are merely cells with DNA. However, when sperm and egg are in fact united together, they begin to grow, by the process of meiosis, which can gain more energy (ATP) to grow from the air that a human breathes, the food that a person eats, the shelter that it is provided, etc.

Another thing, there is a difference between natural abortion that must happen to make the mother survive, and abortion that is performed by humans simply because they feel like it. Natural abortion (miscarriages fall into this category too) is completely normal and okay because the embryo is lacking at least one critical aspect that will enable it grow correctly. As a result to this dillemna, which could in fact affect the mother negatively, the body aborts the baby to enable the mother to survive. Abortion that humans perform either forces that natural abortion to artificially take place, or simply takes the life away in other ways.

And if you read the response before this one, you'll see that I am not in fact joking about the "no sex before marriage" thing. Who knows though, maybe a few years from now I'll try it and find out that I was crazy for thinking the way that I do now. :+

Piro:Ah, so, abortion is wrong cause it kills a living being? following your pattern, also using a car is wrong, cause you kill millions of bugs and insect. And EVERYBODY knows it happens, but still, humans really not seem to care about this.
If you'd look at this situation under mother nature's point of view, you would see a bunch of "fifth apes" arguing about their right to interact with living creatures' life flow. The fact that we are human, does not mean we are more important than other living creatures. if you follow you pattern, you should preserve every form of life on earth, not only human kind because you are part of it. This abortion arguing is really disrespectfull to all kind of living creatures which we fuck up with our "we are humans" attitude in everydays life.
what I wanna point out, is that this whole abortion thing is going on because we care more about our kind than any other. If there was a certain animal capable to abort and choose when to reproduce, would you care about his situation as much as you care about this?
If you wanna talk about "life" and its value, keep it general. Our life has the same value of any other living creature life. we're not better, neither worse.


Well, there is a difference between killing on purpose and killing because it's necessary to do so or because we have no other choice. When it comes to preserving any type of life on earth, humans should try to do their best, and it is this reason that I say abortion is wrong. Humans can avoid abortion all together, but we cannot avoid killing animals. Just like other animals do to get food, you will end up using an animal's resources simply to survive, even if that means killing the animal to get food. After all, if we protected every animal in existance, then we would die of starvation. This is why we kill cows for meat or we drive a car to go to buy meat from the store (and happen to kill tons of bugs in the meantime.) Although I'm definetly not one of those "animal rights" advocates, I can tell you that humans should preserve as much life as we can, and when it comes to abortion, it can be prevented.

RapingPaper:notsureifsrs.jpg :O


Sorry, RP I'm totally serious here.
Last edited by Lop-Sided on 18 Aug 2011, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lop-Sided » 18 Aug 2011, 19:30

zanshi:
Lop-Sided:Yes, you could take a single-celled amoeba and kill it, and there would be not any problem with it. However, if you take that single-celled human, and kill it, there is most definetly a problem. Organisms of the same species don't kill each other unless there is a crisis or there is lack of food or necessities...After all, flies don't kill each other for no reason, and lions certainly don't kill each other for the fun of it either. The only time that these animals would murder each other is if there is no food or there is a lack of necessities.


two comments here:
we do not need more humans on this planet, and yes we have a crisis. in maybe 50 years we're going to run out of fossil energies and in 150 out of drinking water. so, yea, basically it's totally okay.
second: isn't it also a crsis if you're in a bad finacial situation?
and tbh, i'd much rather have an abortion than losing a pet, may sounds super-rude but what the heck.
i would NEVER kill something i love, but i'd get rid of everything that may destroy me or my life forever, for me not being able to abort would maybe drive me into a suicidal state of mind again - BAM two lives lost, take that.
humans are killing each other since they're humans. for food, for territory, for reproduction, money, political reasons,...


Just so you know, humans are in fact needed on the planet. Believe it or not, there is research that predicts that the population of the world is going to fall big time. We will run out of fossil energies within 50 years, which makes it that we desperately need to find a substitute. However, I dont see how we will run out of water at all, thanks to the water cycle.
Second, a crisis could be with financial, but you could also have other types of crisises (such as a mid-life crisis) :)

Killing is wrong if there is no good purpose behind, and this is the point that I am trying to make...Imo, abortion falls into this category, just as testing animals or killing animals for no reason.


zanshi:
Now that this is established, the reason that abortion is wrong, is because it really does kill a living being, whether it may be composed of one cell, hundreds of cells, or even a trillion cells. There is even some evidence received from scientific research that states that the baby may feel pain while undergoing the abortion.


no shit sherlock? and what with the fucking holocaust on your plate every day?
so killing a baby ONCE in your life is not okay, but killing shitloads of animals for the sake of leather shoes, jackets, food and other animal products is okay? animal testing is okay? in your definition those are living creatures aswell aren't they?
humans killed so many creatures, and reased entire species from this planet and that was okay.
hm.
okay - what the FUCK is going on in your head?
abortions are mostly full anesthesia procedures, neither mum nor child feel anything.
you can't say that about most animal farms.
sorry for the veggie outlashing here, i usually do not do that but YOU really made me fucking angry here.
no offense haha.


Wow...I didn't think that I'd piss someone off this much...Really sorry about that Zanshi. :(

Continuing on with discussion though...

If you read one of my last posts, you'll see how I respond to the animal thing...If you apply what I have said in the previous post, you'll find out that I am completely against killing animals for no reason. They are lives too, and they don't deserve to die for no reason. Killing entire species was never okay in the first place.

And while the mom doesn't in fact feel anything, do realize that the child may in fact feel something. After all, have you ever been an aborted child before? Didn't think so.


zanshi:
I would also say that you shouldn't have sex right now either, until you are married simply because if you aren't ready to have a baby, then how could you be ready to have sex, since a baby could happen anytime? You would have to already have a decent job to support your family, and you would have to be done with school. Most people aren't exactly ready when they have sex before marriage.

i'm okay with the consequences :3
that's why there's aways 500€ on my bank account, a morning after pill in my meds case and a nuvaring in my fridge.
babies do not "happen", stupid people and wrong use of hormones & condoms, that's what's happening.

not to be sounding completely heartless, but i think you really do not understand what this may mean for a lot of people.
also considering that we're not the only creatures living on this planet, we shouldn't be reproducing in a completly unecessary way, especially if we didn't want it to happen.


I do in fact understand EXACTLY what is happening here and what it means to people. I'm just going to leave it at that...
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Postby D-Verze » 18 Aug 2011, 19:55

I always think of it like this: Consider a teenager getting pregnant. Consider that she'd keep it and tries to raise the kid. What kind of life will this kid have? Not only will the mothers life be sort of ruined, the kid in question doesn't get happier having a teenage mother either. I don't know what I'd do if I'd made somebody pregnant (regardless of the care taken), you never do so. But I'm not against abortion, simply because of the things I stated above.

Also, at the "not having sex" thing. It's a choice you make. I respect the fact that you don't want to have sex before you marry, but yeah, that's your choice. Someone else can make a different choice.
About the protection thing: I fully agree that one who has sex should also be mature enough to think about protection. But there's nothing out there which can protect you for the full 100%. Condoms can break, the contraceptive pill is a trustworthy drug, but not 100% save, as for forgetting to take it once or as for throwing up or having diarrhea. And even if you take care as for those questions, it still can go wrong.

As for those matters, I find abortion a simple and effective solution for those problems. I can surely understand that some people might see this as destroying life, but it's like I said, what would such a life be worth?
Just my opinion of course, I do not intend to harm or offend anybody.
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