Not a fan of one of the genres?





(You can't hide all the genres)
 

Mixdown, Dynamics & EQ (and related) Topic

Sound design and production in general
  

Postby Soundphase » 01 Sep 2016, 17:09

CAP:
Soundphase:hope someone knows the answer to this
- with an unmastered track, at what db volume should the hardstyle kick be playing at for an acceptable loudness and for ultimately a good mix?

with a hardstyle or hardcore kick I'm unsure of the link between too quiet and too loud since the mids in the kick can be quite harsh if played too loud in headphones


the mix is the audio version of the theory of relativity. how loud should the kick be? that doesn't really matter as long as it's loud enough to overcome the volume related bit depth reduction of your DAW and anything over -20dB should be more than fine. even then the whole bit depth reduction might be more related to older DAWs than to today. to digress back to the relativity stuff, the volume of the kick doesn't really matter....what matters is it's relative volume and tonality against your other instruments. typically though, mine seem to sit around -12dB and can bump up to -8dB some times

tldr: as long as you make a well balanced mix, it doesn't matter how loud the kick is

I see, thanks guys. overthinking on my part then I guess, finding it comfortable to work with a kick level of -5 to -10db just because I don't have to go adjusting the volume knob on the audio interface all the time.
Soundphase (27)
State Celebrity
 
Posts: 1036
Location: Netherlands (nl)



Postby CAP » 01 Sep 2016, 18:42

Soundphase:
CAP:
Soundphase:hope someone knows the answer to this
- with an unmastered track, at what db volume should the hardstyle kick be playing at for an acceptable loudness and for ultimately a good mix?

with a hardstyle or hardcore kick I'm unsure of the link between too quiet and too loud since the mids in the kick can be quite harsh if played too loud in headphones


the mix is the audio version of the theory of relativity. how loud should the kick be? that doesn't really matter as long as it's loud enough to overcome the volume related bit depth reduction of your DAW and anything over -20dB should be more than fine. even then the whole bit depth reduction might be more related to older DAWs than to today. to digress back to the relativity stuff, the volume of the kick doesn't really matter....what matters is it's relative volume and tonality against your other instruments. typically though, mine seem to sit around -12dB and can bump up to -8dB some times

tldr: as long as you make a well balanced mix, it doesn't matter how loud the kick is

I see, thanks guys. overthinking on my part then I guess, finding it comfortable to work with a kick level of -5 to -10db just because I don't have to go adjusting the volume knob on the audio interface all the time.


depending on your DAW, you might be able to have monitor control in your DAW. for example i use Cubase and there's what they call the "control room" panel that fits on the mix window. this allows me to control level as well as monitor selection and flip the mix from stereo to mono easily. There's also a spot for a couple inserts so I have analyzers and a brickwall to protect my monitors. this allows signal to come out of my interface at full volume and i don't have to reach over all the time
User avatar
CAP (32)
Producer
 
Posts: 137
Location: United States (us)

Postby Meltdown » 03 Feb 2017, 20:16

Basicely main of the mastering are made with an -6DB max peak track ;) for exemple me when i send my track to the engineer is everytimes -60DB max peak track and wav 24 bit 44.100hz is not for have better sound or loudness etc... is simply for have headroom for the mastering ;)

mastering is not magical process never except a better mix-down with mastering cause is not possible ^^ but if the mix-down are realy clean with a nice ratio Loud/Clean the mastering will be powerfull that's it ;)

Sometimes a mastering can gluing a bit better all element but you get kinds of sweeping frequency when is boosted to the max
Hardcore DJ/Producer at Masters of Hardcore
Image
Image

My Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/DJMeltdownHardcore
My Youtube : http://www.youtube.com/c/MeltdownDJ
Meltdown (24)
Producer
 
Posts: 36
Location: Belgium (be) S'gravenbrakel

Postby TJOAudio » 05 Feb 2017, 14:04

Meltdown:Basicely main of the mastering are made with an -6DB max peak track ;) for exemple me when i send my track to the engineer is everytimes -60DB max peak track and wav 24 bit 44.100hz is not for have better sound or loudness etc... is simply for have headroom for the mastering ;)

mastering is not magical process never except a better mix-down with mastering cause is not possible ^^ but if the mix-down are realy clean with a nice ratio Loud/Clean the mastering will be powerfull that's it ;)

Sometimes a mastering can gluing a bit better all element but you get kinds of sweeping frequency when is boosted to the max


That -6dbfs meme is not right. You don't need to make your tracks -6db, especially with 32 bit float wav's, they're almost impossible to clip. It's more about the RMS and DR meaning how limited/compressed you send it off.
You can change EQ curves, but you can't really undo compression/limiting, that's the headroom you should leave. No, that doesn't mean you can't have buss compression, just don't make it destructive, or just send 2 versions, one on, other one off.

One reason people ask for -6 or even lower, is so that the end product sounds A LOT louder, therefor better, Im sure majority of people don't level match to compare.

*tldr: As long as your track is under 0dbsf, you like how it sounds and is not over-limited/compressed, you don't need to change anything to send off to mastering.

Hope this clears up some confusion, feel free to ask any other questions.
TJOAudio (22)
Producer
 
Posts: 780
Location: United Kingdom (uk)

Postby CAP » 06 Feb 2017, 18:46

while the -6dBFS may or may not be right due to 32 bit float, every mastering house i've seen requests -6dBFS.....and I don't think that it's just due to coming back with a louder product - but that wouldn't surprise me lol

- i would say it's more of a safety issue. let's say that a certain percentage of your clients doesn't even know what 32 bit floating point is or does and they export at 16bit 44.1 cuz hey, you know, it's cd quality. or maybe 24 bit, 88.2. those transients and intersample peaks when the mix sits up at -3dBFS will cause distortion. it seems that setting a mix peak at -6dBFS is just safe to ensure a good product in to make a good product out
User avatar
CAP (32)
Producer
 
Posts: 137
Location: United States (us)

Postby D_Pina » 13 Apr 2017, 09:02

I have got one question.
When producers finished a track with a proper mixdown in the afternoon and want to test it at a gig the evening, how they do without a mastering ?
I mean, yes mastering a track should be done by a professional so ?
User avatar
D_Pina
State Outsider
 
Posts: 6
Location: Barbados (bb)

Postby Soundphase » 17 Apr 2017, 11:39

D_Pina:I have got one question.
When producers finished a track with a proper mixdown in the afternoon and want to test it at a gig the evening, how they do without a mastering ?
I mean, yes mastering a track should be done by a professional so ?

there are guides out there on how to master your track quickly for YouTube or playing at events. While that may not be the permanent master, it does the job for those purposes
Soundphase (27)
State Celebrity
 
Posts: 1036
Location: Netherlands (nl)

Postby adamross » 17 Apr 2017, 13:14

A good well-balanced mix is far more important, mastering is mostly subtle eq-ing(referencing), a bit of compressing, and loudness :)

For eg: When somebody wants to play a track produced by me in a few hours, i just reference a pro track, fixing some slight 1-2 db eq problems(90% of the time it's a bit more clarity in the highs, punchiness in the bass or some noisefixing in the highmidrange) and pass a FF Pro-L to it. Most of the time my mixes are compressed enough i don't need much, only for final masters.
User avatar
adamross
Producer
 
Posts: 602
Location: Hungary (hu)

Postby D_Pina » 09 May 2017, 11:19

Thanks for the replies. :)
It's more clear.
User avatar
D_Pina
State Outsider
 
Posts: 6
Location: Barbados (bb)

Postby CAP » 05 Jun 2017, 17:18

TheRavestyler:1.Only Cut 30hz and 20khz and more out Of the Synth and than just Do Eqing , the synths still need Warmth so just lower or boost low freqs on the lead if needed.
Analyze a Lead of a Producers track and u will see it still has 50hz -100hz nothing cutted out there, if u eq too much out or u cut too much it will sound too dry and lame.

On ur Question 2.Make ur Mix louder with Mastering , Put it into Wavelab for example and normalize it or Set the RMS (loudness propably)., or if u have a good mixdown just boost the volume with a Brickwall Limiter and than do the usual mastering.

3.Kicks Need Enough Stereo So use Stereo On ur kick till its good, if u use too much it can cause phase problems or it will pan too much out.

My Question Can u Put a Limiter On Everything to avoid peaks and stuff???
for example on Synths , Snares, kicks and stuff,..

to your #1. - Yes, but no, but yes. The warmth of the synth needs to be there but there's still warmth up to 200hz. You don't need sub frequencies in a synth (and here's the catch) during the main part of the track. The sub frequencies are already covered. This is the case where if you want the extra credit, you make both the full frequency synths for the breaks and the times the lows will really shine and the high passed for when the kick dominates - or you can automate your eq. And yes, if you lop too much it'll sound thin. The rule of thumb is to set your high pass slope then slowly move it up until you hear that tone change in your synth while the track is playing then back it off to get that tone back. If you're trying to rock a bassy ass synth during the track - one of two things: 1. you need better sound design to make a synth that will function properly without having low frequencies - 2. side chain compression is your friend if you can handle the pumping

to your #2. put it into wavelab and normalize it? or if you have a good mix just brickwall and master it? - dude, no way. not buying that. the biggest influence on how your master will be is your mix. your mix needs to be mega-tight for it to be mastered properly and just saying "oh yeah, just throw a brickwall on it then master it normally" throws people way off and is just wrong. the world of EDM is a world of highly compressed instruments and highly compressed tracks, especially in the harder styles. That means when you're doing your mix, you're literally "mastering" every channel you have then grouping those channels together then "mastering" those groups then putting the groups together to make your mix and adding a bit of compression - eh, not so much limiting - but compression. That's how you end up with your mix. You print your mix then comes the mastering signal chain and the final limiting compressor. Limiting in the mix stages and on individual channels or groups is typically either for sound design purposes or control of transients to raise the overall RMS. This is all in relation to tone and timbre though, so that comes first. Don't destroy your track or your mix just for loudness.

3. The kick doesn't NEED stereo, but you can use stereo if you want to. Plenty of great mono kicks out there. The thing to look out for is too much bass in your side channels though. Kick sub and bass typically should be reserved for mid channel and cut out of side.

can you put limiters on everything - yes, you can but with caution - too much or too aggressive and you flatten the mix. i've found it's much more transparent to use serial compression with a slow attack and limiters as peak control
Last edited by CAP on 05 Jun 2017, 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CAP (32)
Producer
 
Posts: 137
Location: United States (us)

Postby CAP » 05 Jun 2017, 17:23

D_Pina:I have got one question.
When producers finished a track with a proper mixdown in the afternoon and want to test it at a gig the evening, how they do without a mastering ?
I mean, yes mastering a track should be done by a professional so ?

typically if a producer is seasoned enough, they should be able to put a signal chain together for a "fast master". like what was said before, if the mix is done then you might be able to get away with tossing ozone on it and making the best of it for the night. the "fast master" won't make or break your track, it's just more or less getting the track pushed up RMS wise and small adjustments to the overall tone of the track

all in all, it's my opinion that mastering has some kind of black magic voodoo reputation out there and if people just focused on the mix as their primary concern, the mastering would take care if itself
User avatar
CAP (32)
Producer
 
Posts: 137
Location: United States (us)

Postby The Earfucker » 05 Jun 2017, 19:50

CAP:
D_Pina:I have got one question.
When producers finished a track with a proper mixdown in the afternoon and want to test it at a gig the evening, how they do without a mastering ?
I mean, yes mastering a track should be done by a professional so ?

typically if a producer is seasoned enough, they should be able to put a signal chain together for a "fast master". like what was said before, if the mix is done then you might be able to get away with tossing ozone on it and making the best of it for the night. the "fast master" won't make or break your track, it's just more or less getting the track pushed up RMS wise and small adjustments to the overall tone of the track

all in all, it's my opinion that mastering has some kind of black magic voodoo reputation out there and if people just focused on the mix as their primary concern, the mastering would take care if itself


Treu !!!!!!!!!!
But this is also Important to learn and to know
The mixdown and mastering section at the end is the hardest
And most important part
To geta nice good sound
This last part is not easy to learn with you tube or Text explanation

The best way for me is :
Listen to a good top song with your taste and compare it with your own track In : low mid high
or use 2 x multiband compressors
1x with the end production save to WAV and inport the WAV in your DAW again and use the multiband compressor again and some extra EQ

sometimes After that i use cool edit for a nice low sub and extra mid(low) and some loudness
Only real mastering is pro work!!
I think The most important thing is to have a good mixdown first?
Otherwise mastering is almost impossible
User avatar
The Earfucker
State Newcomer
 
Posts: 32
Location: Netherlands (nl)

Postby Soundphase » 12 Sep 2017, 20:39

did anyone notice that when you layer a compressed sound with another compressed sound (with compressors active on each sound), if you turn up the gain on the first layer, it decreases the power and volume of the other layer.. is there a way to prevent this without re-sampling? I don't think I really understand this phenomenon
Soundphase (27)
State Celebrity
 
Posts: 1036
Location: Netherlands (nl)

Postby TJOAudio » 15 Sep 2017, 14:15

Soundphase:did anyone notice that when you layer a compressed sound with another compressed sound (with compressors active on each sound), if you turn up the gain on the first layer, it decreases the power and volume of the other layer.. is there a way to prevent this without re-sampling? I don't think I really understand this phenomenon


Never happened to me before, it seems like maybe its your 2bus compressor/limiter kicking in? Or youre getting some kind of phase cancellation. Could also be masking effect. Hard to tell with just text description of the problem o_O
TJOAudio (22)
Producer
 
Posts: 780
Location: United Kingdom (uk)

Postby Soundphase » 15 Sep 2017, 15:49

TJOAudio:
Soundphase:did anyone notice that when you layer a compressed sound with another compressed sound (with compressors active on each sound), if you turn up the gain on the first layer, it decreases the power and volume of the other layer.. is there a way to prevent this without re-sampling? I don't think I really understand this phenomenon


Never happened to me before, it seems like maybe its your 2bus compressor/limiter kicking in? Or youre getting some kind of phase cancellation. Could also be masking effect. Hard to tell with just text description of the problem o_O

it was two different compressors, but maybe I had a third compressor on the overall bus..will need to check again
Soundphase (27)
State Celebrity
 
Posts: 1036
Location: Netherlands (nl)



Quick Reply

Register or login to share your passion for the harder styles
   
 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 11 guests